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Liberalism
Free Speech
Immigration
Inequality
Cancel Culture
K-12 Education
Social Media
Political Ideology
Economic Growth
Democracy
Social Security
College Campuses
Health Outcomes
National Debt
Deficit
Taxation
China
Biden Administration
Trump Administration
First Amendment

Has affirmative action gone too far? Should we abolish internet anonymity? Is liberal hypocrisy worth defending?Welcome to The Argument, a weekly podcast from Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias, where two friends argue about politics, policy, and whatever else is on their minds. This is a debate show for people who want the nitty-gritty without the typical screaming matches or softball intervie... more

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Artwork for The Argument

Latest Episodes

America is on track for its lowest homicide year since 1900, but nobody seems to be celebrating. Matt Yglesias and Jerusalem Demsas debate why crime has dropped so dramatically and what caused the pandemic-era highs in the first place. Were the Georg... more

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This week on The Argument, Jerusalem Demsas and Matthew Yglesias debate the tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles. Jerusalem argues that Americans should have access to cheaper, climate-friendly cars, while Matt says industrial policy requires a more ... more

Spirit Airlines is dead and the right, true to form, is blaming Joe Biden. 

The immediate cause of Spirit's demise is pretty clear: the war with Iran spiked jet fuel costs, and the already-battered airline couldn't absorb the hit to its bottom line.... more

Betty Friedan thought Korean POWs were dying in captivity because their mothers were housewives. She thought boy moms were making their sons gay. She wrote a whole chapter comparing suburban kitchens to concentration camps — in 1963, while America wa... more

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Recent Guests

Paul Eastwick
Professor of psychology at UC Davis; author of Bonded by Evolution
University of California, Davis
Episode: Stop Letting Instagram Explain Your Love Life -- The Science of Attraction
Jennifer Doleac
Economist, executive vice president of criminal justice at Arnold Ventures
Arnold Ventures
Episode: The Scientific Method Comes for Criminal Justice
Ross Douthat
New York Times opinion columnist
The New York Times
Episode: Ross Douthat on the End of Conservatism
Carolina Arteaga
Assistant Professor of Economics, University of Toronto
University of Toronto
Episode: Did the Opioid Epidemic Help Republicans Win?
Rita Koganzon
Associate professor and political theorist at UNC Chapel Hill
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Episode: Are Children People?
Chris Elmendorf
Law professor at the University of California, Davis; prominent housing policy researcher and commentator
University of California, Davis
Episode: Why NIMBYs Oppose Housing (with Chris Elmendorf)
Matthew Yglesias
Liberal politics and policy writer, guest on The Argument
The Argument
Episode: Matthew Yglesias on What Went Wrong with Modern Liberalism?
Gabriele Gratton
Professor of politics and economics at the University of New South Wales
University of New South Wales
Episode: How Liberal Elite Failure Fueled Far-Right Populism
Kelsey Piper
Staff writer at The Argument and education reporter
The Argument
Episode: America’s Reading Crisis: What Mississippi Got Right

Hosts

Matthew Yglesias
Co-host who introduces and debates topics with Jerusalem Demsas; liberal politics and policy writer with a focus on evidence-based analysis.
Jerusalem Demsas
Co-host who introduces and debates topics with Matthew Yglesias; writes on housing, liberalism, and public policy.

Reviews

4.5 out of 5 stars from 84 ratings
  • Fascinating wonky discussion and debate

    Jerusalem and Matt cover a range of interesting topics and go deeper than most other shows while still keeping the discussion lively and approachable.

    Apple Podcasts
    5
    Brian1093
    United States21 days ago
  • Back in the Weeds?

    I have really appreciated The Argument in written and audio formats. I think Jerusalem Demsas is brave and brilliant, and a very good host and analyst. I enjoyed earlier episodes with different guests, notably on housing and climate. While I am still trying to embrace the premise and am pushing myself to engage with differing (and notoriously “heterodox”) viewpoints and opinions, I am unfortunately remembering during the asylum episode that I can ordinarily only stand to listen to Matt Yglesi... more

    Apple Podcasts
    5
    CmpGold
    United Statesa month ago
  • A tough but worthwhile listen

    I think that the topics of this podcast are relevant and interesting, but, boy, are the recordings difficult to listen to. Jerusalem speaks very quickly, almost too quickly to make out, and the hosts constantly interrupt each other. I find myself wondering if something interesting was about to be said if it hadn’t been cut off by the other host.

    Apple Podcasts
    3
    TrackerNeil
    United Statesa month ago
  • Claude Summaries

    Jerusalem in an episode sought a Claude summary of something Matt said. Riveting stuff from some of our best online minds.

    Apple Podcasts
    2
    DrPenguinPhD
    United Statesa month ago
  • Breath of Fresh air

    Well done- I don’t always agree with the opinions shared by the host or its guests but I don’t deny the deep level of introspection reached to get them.

    Apple Podcasts
    5
    LeBLM James
    United Statesa month ago

Listeners Say

Key themes from listener reviews, highlighting what works and what could be improved about the show.

Listeners appreciate the rigor and civility, though some feel pacing can be slow or too monologue-heavy at times.
Some criticism centers on host dynamics and interview pacing, suggesting it can feel like parallel conversations.
The show is praised for back-and-forth debates that clarify issues rather than shout-downs.
Guests and topics are often timely and policy-focused, appealing to think-pieces and policy wonks.

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Talking Points

Recent interactions between the hosts and their guests.

Why NIMBYs Oppose Housing (with Chris Elmendorf)
Q: What policy recommendations emerge from your findings?
Focus up-zoning and development in areas with existing apartment stock or commercial use, pursue transit-oriented development, and consider pre-approved designs to reduce discretionary hurdles; broader strategies include improving how developers engage with communities and considering larger-scale land assembly to better integrate new buildings aesthetically.
Why NIMBYs Oppose Housing (with Chris Elmendorf)
Q: How did aesthetics become central to housing attitudes in your research?
The team found that people's feelings toward cities and the visual fit of tall buildings with existing streetscapes are strongly linked to support for or opposition to housing, and that people react more to aesthetic context than to proximity alone; experiments manipulated visuals, awards for architects, and building types to show these effects.
Why NIMBYs Oppose Housing (with Chris Elmendorf)
Q: What does the political science literature say about housing opposition already?
There are two dominant explanations—the home-voter hypothesis and the NIMBY model—but in practice, opposition often blends these with concerns about parking, schools, and perceived developer greed; the theory is that people rely on heuristics and trusted messengers to form views on policy.
Matthew Yglesias on What Went Wrong with Modern Liberalism?
Q: What went wrong with modern liberalism and how did it become entangled with group-based thinking?
The guest argues that liberalism absorbed collectivist and identity-focused reasoning as a response to real injustices, but over time those group-based generalizations began to erode commitments to judging people as individuals, which can undermine universal rights and create new forms of exclusion.
Did the Opioid Epidemic Help Republicans Win?
Q: What are the core findings of your study regarding opioid exposure and Republican vote share in 2022?
Places with higher cancer mortality in the 1990s, driven by promotion of opioid pain medications, show higher Republican vote shares in 2022, with effects accumulating over time across House, governor, and presidential races; the impact is larger in places with greater exposure to the epidemic and not easily explained by attractiveness to incumbents or other shocks.

Audience Metrics

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Frequently Asked Questions About The Argument

What is The Argument about and what kind of topics does it cover?

A debate-driven show where two hosts argue distinct, research-backed positions on timely political and policy questions, then hash out their points. Episodes cover topics like liberalism, immigration, housing, AI, and assessing societal norms with careful reasoning, data, and practical implications. Notable for its emphasis on rigor over hot takes, it frequently features guests who challenge established views, and aims to help listeners understand different sides of complex issues without sensationalism. The format tends to attract listeners who value evidence, civility, and nuanced policy discussion, and it often appeals to those seeking thoughtful, non-polemical political dialogue.

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Which podcasts are similar to The Argument?

These podcasts share a similar audience with The Argument:

1. Politix
2. Central Air
3. Plain English with Derek Thompson
4. The Ezra Klein Show
5. Conversations with Tyler

How many episodes of The Argument are there?

The Argument launched 8 months ago and published 31 episodes to date. You can find more information about this podcast including rankings, audience demographics and engagement in our podcast database.

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What guests have appeared on The Argument?

Recent guests on The Argument include:

1. Paul Eastwick
2. Jennifer Doleac
3. Ross Douthat
4. Carolina Arteaga
5. Rita Koganzon
6. Chris Elmendorf
7. Matthew Yglesias
8. Gabriele Gratton

To view more recent guests and their details, simply upgrade your Rephonic account. You'll also get access to a typical guest profile to help you decide if the show is worth pitching.

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