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Artwork for Scaling Laws
Artificial Intelligence
AI Regulation
AI Policy
Open Source AI
Innovation Policy
Governance
China AI Development
Law
Congress
Technology Policy
Artificial General Intelligence
Openai
U.S. AI Research Funding
Collaborative Development
State Legislation
Political Dynamics
AI Governance
Geopolitical Implications
First Amendment
AI Action Plan

Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow a... more

PublishesTwice weeklyEpisodes212Founded4 years ago
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Artwork for Scaling Laws

Latest Episodes

Fabien Curto Millet, Chief Economist at Google, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law ... more

Nicholas Bagley, Professor of Law at Michigan Law, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, for a live recording of the podcast in Ann ... more

Representative Nick Begich, Alaska's at-large member of Congress, joins Kevin Frazier, Director the the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss the current stat... more

Kendall Cotton, Founder and CEO of Montana’s Frontier Institute, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss Montana’s groundbreaking Right to Compute Act a... more

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Recent Guests

Kendall Cotton
CEO and founder of the Frontier Institute
Frontier Institute
Episode: Should AI Laws Be Subject To A Higher Standard? The Right to Compute with Kendall Cotton
Jassi Pannu
Assistant Professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health; Senior Scholar at Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security
Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
Episode: Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield
Doni Bloomfield
Associate Professor of Law at Fordham Law School
Fordham Law School
Episode: Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield
Helen Toner
Policy expert from CSET invited to discuss the White House AI policy framework
Center for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET)
Episode: Rapid Response Pod: Trump's New AI Framework with Helen Toner & Dean Ball
Dean Ball
Founder/leader in AI policy and safety initiatives invited to discuss the policy framework
Future of AI Initiative (FAI)
Episode: Rapid Response Pod: Trump's New AI Framework with Helen Toner & Dean Ball
Jessica Silbey
Boston University law professor
Boston University
Episode: Is AI a Death Sentence for Civic Institutions?, with Jessica Silbey and Woodrow Hartzog
Woodrow Hartzog
Boston University law professor
Boston University
Episode: Is AI a Death Sentence for Civic Institutions?, with Jessica Silbey and Woodrow Hartzog
Tomicah Tillemann
President at Project Liberty Institute
Project Liberty Institute
Episode: Can AI Enable Human Agency?, with Tomicah Tillemann
Caleb Watney
A leading thinker at the Institute for Progress, discussing meta-science and long-term policy for science and AI
Institute for Progress
Episode: Live from Ashby: Taking a Long View on AI Governance with Austin Carson and Caleb Watney

Hosts

Alan Rozenshtein
Co-host; Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare.
Kevin Frazier
Co-host; AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare.

Reviews

4.4 out of 5 stars from 47 ratings
  • Goofy

    Not up to the standards of the other Lawfare pods.

    Apple Podcasts
    1
    mhaliett
    United States2 months ago
  • Best of a bad lot

    The episode with Francis Shen of Neurolaw is excellent. Lots to disagree with. Specifically the idea of experimentally implementing surveillance before there’s general recognition that police and prosecutors AND THE DAMN FEDS are more interested in reducing crime than persecuting people (who are criminals to be sure, but that’s just an excuse for sadism). But both discussants recognize the problem and I salute you!

    I subscribed immediately after the trailer but pretty quickly left because of to... more

    Apple Podcasts
    2
    Standards Geek
    Japan3 months ago
  • The great team from Lawfare takes their admirable expertise in law and national security and then talks to some not always very technical people about tech stuff that is largely out of Lawfare's area of expertise.

    There's a nugget of a good idea here because most tech people who can talk credibly about the tech side have no idea what they are talking about when they try to talk about public policy and social impacts to deal with this stuff. But starting with some credulous guessing and then app... more

    Podchaser
    2
    wrosecrans
    5 months ago
  • Scaling Laws formerly Arbiters of Truth

    Episodes of Scaling Laws begin 2025.07.02. Any review/rating before this date presumably applied to AoT. I’m just noting this for the record b/c the current featured review was authored in 2024.

    (Also noted for the record: Hook ‘Em, Horns! 🙃)

    Apple Podcasts
    5
    Suzushka
    United States8 months ago
  • Can't believe they gave doxxer/journalist/Karen Taylor Lorenz a platform.

    Can't believe they gave doxxer/journalist/Karen Taylor Lorenz a platform. Shame.

    Apple Podcasts
    1
    jaiboregio78
    United States3 years ago

Listeners Say

Key themes from listener reviews, highlighting what works and what could be improved about the show.

Listeners appreciate the deep dives into current issues surrounding AI and law, often highlighting the engaging discussions and expert insights.
There is criticism regarding the podcast's handling of controversial topics and guest selections, suggesting some listeners feel certain voices shouldn't be amplified.
Overall, the combination of legal insights and tech policy makes it a unique resource, particularly valued by those in related professional fields.

Chart Rankings

How this podcast ranks in the Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube charts.

Apple Podcasts
#82
United States/Government
Apple Podcasts
#218
United Kingdom/Government
Apple Podcasts
#230
Canada/Government
Apple Podcasts
#243
Italy/Government
Apple Podcasts
#14
Denmark/Government
Apple Podcasts
#40
Chile/Government

Talking Points

Recent interactions between the hosts and their guests.

Should AI Laws Be Subject To A Higher Standard? The Right to Compute with Kendall Cotton
Q: What exactly is the right to compute and why does it matter beyond AI specifically?
It's a broad declaration that computing resources are a fundamental part of exercising free expression and property rights online, so any law restricting computing must be narrowly tailored and backed by a compelling state interest, not just convenience.
Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield
Q: What about international coordination—could US-led standards be effective if other countries do not follow suit?
The guests contend that pandemic pathogen risk is a global concern and that international alignment would make a meaningful difference; even if not perfect, US leadership with outreach to other governments would raise the baseline of safety and create incentives for global cooperation.
Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield
Q: How would the proposed biosecurity data levels work in practice, and how would restricting data be implemented?
BDLs are a four-tier system where level 0 data is openly accessible and levels 1–4 impose progressively stricter controls, including identity verification and prior-approval requirements for the most sensitive datasets, with a governance body to update classifications and manage access.
Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield
Q: Why focus specifically on data access within the broader AI governance stack?
The speakers argue that data is the bottleneck for enabling dangerous capabilities in bio AI; by controlling access to the most sensitive data (through tiers and regulation), you can meaningfully curb risk while preserving legitimate research. This approach leverages existing biosafety precedents and privacy/data governance frameworks to create a tractable, empirical pathway to reduce misuse.
Alan and Kevin join the Cognitive Revolution.
Q: How have firms reacted to AI technologies in legal practice?
There's a dynamic shift where some firms may prefer hiring AI-savvy individuals over traditional top graduates due to the increasing importance of AI in legal workflows.

Audience Metrics

Listeners, social reach, demographics and more for this podcast.

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Frequently Asked Questions About Scaling Laws

What is Scaling Laws about and what kind of topics does it cover?

A thoughtful exploration of the intersection between artificial intelligence, law, and public policy, episodes feature in-depth discussions on the implications and ethical considerations of AI in various sectors. Hosts engage with experts from diverse backgrounds, from legal scholars to tech policy professionals, tackling pressing issues such as AI regulations, its impact on society, and the challenges posed by emerging technologies. The podcast is particularly noteworthy for its commitment to transparency and its critical stance on how AI advancements require careful governance to balance innovation against societal risks.

Listeners can expect insightful commentary on the evolving landscape of AI legislation, as well as interviews with in... more

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Which podcasts are similar to Scaling Laws?

These podcasts share a similar audience with Scaling Laws:

1. The Lawfare Podcast
2. Rational Security
3. Hard Fork
4. The AI Policy Podcast
5. The Ezra Klein Show

How many episodes of Scaling Laws are there?

Scaling Laws launched 4 years ago and published 212 episodes to date. You can find more information about this podcast including rankings, audience demographics and engagement in our podcast database.

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What guests have appeared on Scaling Laws?

Recent guests on Scaling Laws include:

1. Kendall Cotton
2. Jassi Pannu
3. Doni Bloomfield
4. Helen Toner
5. Dean Ball
6. Jessica Silbey
7. Woodrow Hartzog
8. Tomicah Tillemann

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