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Artwork for Scaling Laws
Artificial Intelligence
AI Regulation
AI Policy
Innovation Policy
Governance
China AI Development
Law
Technology Policy
Congress
Artificial General Intelligence
Openai
U.S. AI Research Funding
AI Policy Debate
State Legislation
Political Dynamics
AI Governance
Public Trust In AI
Geopolitical Implications
First Amendment
AI Action Plan

Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow a... more

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Artwork for Scaling Laws

Latest Episodes

Most folks agree that AI is going to drastically change our economy, the nature of work, and the labor market. What's unclear is when those changes will take place and how best Americans can navigate the transition.

Brent Orrell, senior fellow at ... more

Jakub Kraus, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, spoke with Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School o... more

Shlomo Klapper, founder of Learned Hand, joins Kevin Frazier, the Director of the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law, a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rise o... more

Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Francis Shen, Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota, director of the Shen Neurolaw Lab, and candidate for Hennepin County Attorney.

The conversation covered the intersection of neur... more

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Recent Guests

Brent Orrell
Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, focusing on workforce development and job training
American Enterprise Institute
Episode: Is this your last "job"? The AI Economy With AEI's Brent Orrell
Shlomo Klapper
Founder of Learned Hand, an AI platform for judicial use
Learned Hand
Episode: The Honorable AI? Shlomo Klapper Talks Judicial Use of AI
Francis Shen
Professor of Law and Director of the Shen Neurolaw Lab, running for Hennepin County Attorney
University of Minnesota Law School
Episode: How AI Can Transform Local Criminal Justice, with Francis Shen
Ziad Reslan
A member of the OpenAI Product Policy staff
OpenAI
Episode: Release Schedules and Iterative Deployment with Open AI's Ziad Reslan
Senator James Maroney
Connecticut State Senator
State of Connecticut
Episode: A Year That Felt Like a Decade: 2025 Recap with Sen. Maroney & Neil Chilson
Cass Sunstein
Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard University and author of 'Imperfect Oracle, What AI Can and Cannot Do'
Harvard University
Episode: Cass Sunstein on What AI Can and Cannot Do
Jakub Kraus
Lawfare's Tarbell Fellow
Lawfare
Episode: Rapid Response Pod on the AI Preemption Executive Order
Graham Dufault
General Counsel of The App Association
The App Association
Episode: Graham Dufault on small businesses and navigating EU AI laws
Caleb Withers
Research associate at the Center for a New American Security, focusing on frontier AI and national security.
Center for a New American Security
Episode: Caleb Withers on the Cybersecurity Frontier in the Age of AI

Hosts

Alan Rozenshtein
Co-host; Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare.
Kevin Frazier
Co-host; AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare.

Reviews

4.5 out of 5 stars from 44 ratings
  • The great team from Lawfare takes their admirable expertise in law and national security and then talks to some not always very technical people about tech stuff that is largely out of Lawfare's area of expertise.

    There's a nugget of a good idea here because most tech people who can talk credibly about the tech side have no idea what they are talking about when they try to talk about public policy and social impacts to deal with this stuff. But starting with some credulous guessing and then app... more

    Podchaser
    2
    wrosecrans
    3 months ago
  • Scaling Laws formerly Arbiters of Truth

    Episodes of Scaling Laws begin 2025.07.02. Any review/rating before this date presumably applied to AoT. I’m just noting this for the record b/c the current featured review was authored in 2024.

    (Also noted for the record: Hook ‘Em, Horns! 🙃)

    Apple Podcasts
    5
    Suzushka
    United States6 months ago
  • Can't believe they gave doxxer/journalist/Karen Taylor Lorenz a platform.

    Can't believe they gave doxxer/journalist/Karen Taylor Lorenz a platform. Shame.

    Apple Podcasts
    1
    jaiboregio78
    United States3 years ago
  • Bringing in the Content Moderation Auditors

    The about auditing edition w/ Colleen Honigsberg was interesting anyway, but when Dr. Honigsberg turned questions back to Evelyn Douek, it was especially so. Getting clear about transparency is harder than one might think.

    Apple Podcasts
    5
    Thulin Passage
    Canada4 years ago
  • They finally got their own show!

    Yay! This is, by a mile, the best audio resource about the downside of social media. Evelyn, Quinta et al are distinctive in their ability to let their subjects do the talking. You won’t find much show-boating here, just good information.

    Apple Podcasts
    5
    MBelderson
    United Kingdom4 years ago

Listeners Say

Key themes from listener reviews, highlighting what works and what could be improved about the show.

Listeners appreciate the deep dives into current issues surrounding AI and law, often highlighting the engaging discussions and expert insights.
There is criticism regarding the podcast's handling of controversial topics and guest selections, suggesting some listeners feel certain voices shouldn't be amplified.
Overall, the combination of legal insights and tech policy makes it a unique resource, particularly valued by those in related professional fields.

Chart Rankings

How this podcast ranks in the Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube charts.

Apple Podcasts
#40
United States/Government
Apple Podcasts
#70
United Kingdom/Government
Apple Podcasts
#38
Australia/Government
Apple Podcasts
#44
Italy/Government
Apple Podcasts
#82
France/Government
Apple Podcasts
#44
Chile/Government

Talking Points

Recent interactions between the hosts and their guests.

Release Schedules and Iterative Deployment with Open AI's Ziad Reslan
Q: What role can public policy makers play in supporting this approach?
Public policymakers should ensure that AI technology is used for its intended purpose while preventing misuse, emphasizing the importance of accessible explanations of technology for citizens.
Release Schedules and Iterative Deployment with Open AI's Ziad Reslan
Q: What does the OpenAI dictionary definition of iterative deployment mean for deciding when and how to release a model?
Iterative deployment means trusting users to unlock the potential of technology through their actual use, allowing for refinements based on real-world applications.
Release Schedules and Iterative Deployment with Open AI's Ziad Reslan
Q: How the heck did you end up on the product policy staff at OpenAI?
Ziad Reslan shares his journey from being born and raised in Beirut to practicing law and ultimately understanding tech policy, which led him to work with OpenAI's product policy team.
A Year That Felt Like a Decade: 2025 Recap with Sen. Maroney & Neil Chilson
Q: What are the predictions for AI legislation moving forward?
Both Neil and Senator Maroney foresee continued activity in AI legislation, focusing on industry-specific regulations and the emerging need for transparency in AI interactions.
A Year That Felt Like a Decade: 2025 Recap with Sen. Maroney & Neil Chilson
Q: How did Senator Maroney perceive Congress's relative inaction on AI regulation?
Senator Maroney noted that while there is consensus on the necessity for action, the nature of that action remains debated, highlighting historical drawbacks in tech legislation.

Audience Metrics

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Frequently Asked Questions About Scaling Laws

What is Scaling Laws about and what kind of topics does it cover?

A thoughtful exploration of the intersection between artificial intelligence, law, and public policy, episodes feature in-depth discussions on the implications and ethical considerations of AI in various sectors. Hosts engage with experts from diverse backgrounds, from legal scholars to tech policy professionals, tackling pressing issues such as AI regulations, its impact on society, and the challenges posed by emerging technologies. The podcast is particularly noteworthy for its commitment to transparency and its critical stance on how AI advancements require careful governance to balance innovation against societal risks.

Listeners can expect insightful commentary on the evolving landscape of AI legislation, as well as interviews with in... more

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These podcasts share a similar audience with Scaling Laws:

1. The Lawfare Podcast
2. The Ezra Klein Show
3. Rational Security
4. Interesting Times with Ross Douthat
5. Hard Fork

How many episodes of Scaling Laws are there?

Scaling Laws launched 4 years ago and published 195 episodes to date. You can find more information about this podcast including rankings, audience demographics and engagement in our podcast database.

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What guests have appeared on Scaling Laws?

Recent guests on Scaling Laws include:

1. Brent Orrell
2. Shlomo Klapper
3. Francis Shen
4. Ziad Reslan
5. Senator James Maroney
6. Cass Sunstein
7. Jakub Kraus
8. Graham Dufault

To view more recent guests and their details, simply upgrade your Rephonic account. You'll also get access to a typical guest profile to help you decide if the show is worth pitching.

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